This is a transcription of an e-mail exchange I had with someone who read my site and who, like me, is drawn to both Heathenism and Buddhism. Our discussion raises some intersting points, so I decided to post it here. Eventually, I will recast this into more of a formal article.
Hi,
My name is Scott. Today I was looking around on the web and found your page. I too am intersted in both Buddhism and Asatru so it was cool to read that somoene else out there has the same idea. Your perfectly right Buddhism does combine well with local folk religions in china with Taoism and Japan with Shinto. Asatru seems to really complament buddhism by giving it an ancestral and community aspect. I'm very interested in what your views regarding certain aspects of Asatru (such as certain runes, Wyrd, orlog , etc) and how they relate to buddhist ideas like Karma, and conditioned gneiss, etc if you have the time that is. Buddhism itself is a branch of Indo - European thought so it does have similarities to the teachings of Asatru.
Good luck with the page!
Hailsa Scott!
At 09:53 AM 1/23/2004, you wrote:
Hi my names Scott Pierson from Livonia Michigan. Today i was looking around on the web and found your page. I too am intersted in both Buddhism and Asatru so it was cool to read that somoene else out there has the same idea.
You mean I'm not crazy? Wow, that's a relief.
Your perfectly right Buddhism does combine well with local folk religions in china with Taoism and Japan with Shinto. Asatru seems to really complament buddhism by giving it an ancestral and community aspect.
Yes, I think so. I also think some of the metaphysical ideas in modern Asatru thought offer good ideas to flesh out the bare bones picture of karma. That is, the idea of family spirit and soul travel in Asatru offers more of an explanation for me as to why i am here in America born to my family, etc. bare bones karmic theory doesn't account for specifics of place and such - I could have been a Zulu in a past life for all I know. I like the close kinship to family and ancestral lines that Asatru offers. Conversely, i think Buddhism offers teachings on compassion that indigenous religions like Asatru just didn't develop. All societies, at some point, either grow or borrow "great teachers" to drive home important points about dealing with each other. I wonder what would have happened if Buddhists had made it to Scandinavia before the Christians had.
I'm very interested in what your views regarding certain aspects of Asatru (such as certain runes, Wyrd, orlog , etc) and how they relate to buddhist ideas like Karma, and conditioned gneiss, etc if you have the time that is.
Heh, well time is the issue, for sure. Why don't we choose one and try discussing it first. I'll start by saying that for me Orlog and Megin are very important. I see Megin as roughly synonymous to Chi (Ki) and Orlog as an aspect of the Tao, but then, I may have said this on my web page.
Buddhism itself is a branch of Indo - European thought so it does have similarities to the teachings of Asatru.
Interesting point. I'd say there are similarities because Buddhism was created in a culture that was polytheistic and therefore borrowed that cultural perspective. Although, strictly speaking, the Buddha never said much about metaphysics -he said here's the problem as I see it, here's my solution. He was deified and garbled later on - same as most teachers.
Good luck with the page!
Thanks! I am glad if it was useful.
Frith,
- eric
I just finished reading an excelent book "Zen and the Way of the Sword, Arming the Samurai Psyche" by Winston L King. It discribes how Taoist (in china) and Shinto (in Japan) ideas were fused with Buddhist teachings. Particularly the seemingly odd connection of Shinto warrior virtues and emperor worship with Zen. The Shinto god of war was even given the status of a Bhodisatva and defender of the Buddhist teachings (something simmilar could be done with Thor in an Asatru context i believe ). The warrior ethic of Japan which is in part based on Shinto also taught the importance of constantly meditateing on death and treating every action as if it were you last something that is also found in Buddhism. The book points out that wherever Buddhism is imported it (for the most part) it honors the folkish gods. The gods of the folk are prayed to and honored for victory , fertility, suscess and worldy gain but the Buddhist teaching it was stressed was the only way to Nirvana which is the ultimate goal of human life. Even in India the place were Buddhism was founded you can see this.. many of the vedic gods were considered protecters of the Dharma. I think that Asatru has a concept simmilar to Nirvana in its Valhalla. Certain states brought about by extreame selfless action with no attachment to outcome in battle could lead to Samadhi. Obvioulsy there are some differnces between the two because on at least on the mythical the valhalla myth states the the person continues on as a diety like being in the heavens whereas nirvana is a state beyond discription and the buddha never answered wether he did or did not or both did and did not continue after death etc... maybe it would be more acurate to say that the state of valhalla is simmilar to samadhi then Nirvana itself?
- Scott
Hailsa,
Sorry it took me so long to answer, it's been busy here.
Anyway....
At 12:43 PM 1/28/2004, you wrote:
I just finished reading an excelent book "Zen and the Way of the Sword, Arming the Samurai Psyche" by Winston L King. It discribes how Taoist (in china) and Shinto (in Japan) ideas were fused with Buddhist teachings. Particularly the seemingly odd connection of Shinto warrior virtues and emperor worship with Zen.
Sounds like an interesting book. Bear in mind that emperor worship is a relatively modern concept. Though the emperor is technically descended from deity, he was not always worshipped, more considered a high priest. The real deification of the emperor, as well as the blending if that idea with Zen, was an outgrowth of nationalism in the early 20th century.
Now, Zen and Shinto have both certainly played important roles in the samurai psyche. Shinto was the main influence until about the 13th century when Zen really took root. BTW - Zen does share a lot of attitudes and philosophy with Taoism, but I bet you knew that. Zen is the most Taoist and naturalistic of the Buddhist schools.
The Shinto god of war was even given the status of a Bhodisatva and defender of the Buddhist teachings (something simmilar could be done with Thor in an Asatru context i believe ).
Yup. Hachiman - he was originally a historical general, BTW. One of the early Minamotos, as I recall. Actually, pretty much all the major Shinto deities are considered Bhodisatvas. This practice began in India and migrated through China - hence Kuan Yin, goddess of mercy, becoming one. She's Kannon in Japan. I think it is cool, though you could argue that it is an example of Buddhism coming in and trying to usurp the native religion. But it is much more sedate and polite than the way the Christians did it and people in Asian nations are totally cool with worshiping in more than one way - something I wish the west would learn.
As for Thor and our other AEsir/Vanir friends, I could see them as Bhodisatvas, yes. But really, I don't see the need for it. Rather, i think that our ancestors, including the AEsir, were pragmatic people and would recognize good teachings when they saw them and leave it at that. I do see Thor as something of a samurai, for sure. Tyr also - his devotion to honor and duty in the service of his people is plain - and the samurai would have respected his courage and blunt acceptance of the need to sacrifice his hand, the flesh being unimportant. I also see Odin as having a similar attitude to many Daimyo in that he is a concerned father and leader of his people and has had the realization that their time is limited. he knows life and death are the same. In that sense, he is more "zen" than any other Aes.
The warrior ethic of Japan which is in part based on Shinto also taught the importance of constantly meditating on death and treating every action as if it were you last something that is also found in Buddhism.
This is the ideal, yes. But again, it is a late appearance. The whole "the way of the samurai is the way of death" was only really codified in the Hagakure in the 18th century - a time when samurai were finding their role and importance to society shrinking and they needed to revitalize their sense of self. If you look at the history up till then, there are as many examples of petty, disloyal samurai as there are honorable heroes. Basically just like our ancestors in the north. But hey, this is WHY we have ideals and the lessons in the lore.
Shinto, in and of itself, is actually not really death oriented. As a tribal fertility religion, it stresses life much more. It tends to think of death as just icky and not worth talking about, just avoiding (hence the stress on purity and cleanliness). It's more Vanir than AEsir. ;-) The samurai role in Shinto terms is defence of the land and people so that life may go on - which is why your Thor thought really works well.
Death obsession, or at least meditation on Death, is Buddhist and first really caught their imagination in the early periods, like around the 9th through 11th century (Heian).
The book points out that wherever Buddhism is imported it (for the most part) it honors the folkish gods.
Yup.
The gods of the folk are prayed to and honored for victory , fertility, suscess and worldy gain but the Buddhist teaching it was stressed was the only way to Nirvana which is the ultimate goal of human life.
According to Buddhism, yes. The question remaining then is _why_ is it the goal of human life? The first noble truth aside.
Even in India the place were Buddhism was founded you can see this.. many of the vedic gods were considered protecters of the Dharma.
Yup that whole Bhodisattva thing again.
I think that Asatru has a concept simmilar to Nirvana in its Valhalla. Certain states brought about by extreame selfless action with no attachment to outcome in battle could lead to Samadhi. Obvioulsy there are some differnces between the two because on at least on the mythical the valhalla myth states the the person continues on as a diety like being in the heavens whereas nirvana is a state beyond discription and the buddha never answered wether he did or did not or both did and did not continue after death etc... maybe it would be more acurate to say that the state of valhalla is simmilar to samadhi then Nirvana itself?
Hmmm... Well, there are also some concepts in other schools of Buddhism that could be studied along these lines. Have you read about Jodo sect/"Pure Land" Buddhism? Their idea is that Nirvana is hard to get to, so they offer a stepping stone - have faith and you will be reborn in the western paradise of the Amida Buddha. There, it is easier to live a pure life, so it is easy to attain enlightenment. Perhaps Asgard and its various halls are like that -- places where one's soul can exist in a more serene state perfectly suited to one's natural inclinations.
Personally, though, I do see Valhalla as a metaphor for enlightenment, or if you prefer, perfect union with Orlog. I like that idea because I prefer to see our metaphysical future as one in which we keep growing and changing, not simply "being". I think this is a more realistic idea in light of what we know about Nature and physics - things don't stay the same, so a state of permanent union with the divine in which nothing happens (I am being glib, I know) doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
BTW, I see most mythical places and such as metaphor. We are only humans limited to our five senses, we need symbols to help us put into "layman's terms" these huge immortal concepts so we can digest them. Are you familiar with the Buddhist idea of "expedient means"? That's what I am talking about. It's all "fingers pointing at the moon".
Heh, or if you want to get zen about it you could say "This very life is Valhalla." ;-)
Of course, a lot of Asatruar are more literalist than I am: You die, you go to Valhalla if you were an honorable warrior, you eat pork and party down till Ragnarok. Period. But then, it is hard to reconcile our concepts of Valhalla or Freya's Hall or Hela's with some of our ideas about soul composition and the transmigration of megin and ancestor spirits.
Frith,
- eric
PS - Sorry for the rambling, but thanks for the conversation!
